The Tsunami of Stress: Core Issues

As human beings, we all have 'issues.' The impact of stress and trauma have often undermined our best efforts to love ourselves and others in a healthy way. Listen as Tom identifies the four core 'issues' we all struggle with and how we can turn those core 'issues' into core 'strengths.'

Transcript

Tom Pals: 0:02

Welcome to the autonomic healing Podcast. I'm Tom Pals.

Ruth Lorensson: 0:06

And I'm Ruth Lorensson. We'll be unpacking what it looks like to activate your brain to holistically manage stress and trauma that bring healing to the mind, body and spirit,

Tom Pals: 0:17

being free to live authentically as humans.

Ruth Lorensson: 0:21

Thank you for joining us. Let's get this conversation started. Tom, we've talked about the tsunami of stress, some of those

Tom Pals: 0:28

How? Yes, absolutely. And how I identified them as basic patterns where we've seen, you know, the stages of the tsunami of stress, this perpetual cycle of fight and flight. And what I'd love us to just dip into today are because I'm a human being, and all human beings experience something that you call core issues. And they somehow interplay with the tsunami, would you start us off and talk about those? And how do you even come up with those core issues? How do you identify them? them, and I observe them in myself and observe them and Well, that escalating pattern of and why it escalates is related to core issues that are expressed and reacted to. So as other people, the tsunami of stress is that escalating human beings, we experienced change, there is no life without change. And some people are averse to change, other people pattern of flight or fight, and we attempt to flee the threat, thrive on change. But there is change, we are growing, our environment changes, relationships, change situations in life change, our body is constantly changing. So change avoid it, escape it. And some people will say, well, there's is inherent in the nature of an organism change is life, life has changed. How we experience it, is the issue. So the tsunami freeze flight fight. Yeah, freeze and flight, are simply of stress is a function of reactivity to sense or perceived threat to well being. So we sense a threat to well being. And remember, we have as human beings, not just five senses, we versions of the same thing we attempt to avoid a sense of, or have 21 human senses, the vast majority of what we experience through our senses is going on under the surface, we're not whatever that threat is that we sense or perceive. And so we even aware of it, that our brain is processing all that information, when we encounter sensory information that relates freeze in place, like a bunny. Oh, it can see me and then it to an unresolved trauma or chronic stressor than we are reactive to it as if we are experiencing that threat right now. Which is why the classic characteristic of trauma is that runs away. Still the same thing. It's just avoiding the threat. the reaction is out of proportion to what's happening now. And the reason it's out of proportion to what's happening And if it can't avoid the threat, then we attempt to fight now is because it isn't just in terms of our neurobiology. It isn't what's just happening now. It's what's happened now the threat. And it's this escalating pattern which I call consistent with all the other times we've experienced something like that, and including the original experience that was either traumatic or stressful. And then the tsunami of stress. Yes. we're reactive to that.

Ruth Lorensson: 3:54

So what happens is that there's something that happens in our day to day lives that you know, actually isn't potentially threatening at all. But it is so similar to something that happened all the way back that never really got normalized that we experienced the whole, the whole lot of it.

Tom Pals: 4:13

Yep, yeah. So when I deal with a war vet, and they're telling me their story, which I discourage them from doing, because until we've done autonomic healing, which normalizes that they're going to be traumatized by that, because they're dealing with that sensory information related to the trough and the Vietnam War vet that I treated, and he was reactive to my desk lamp because he'd been in a bunker rocketed, hit it the yellow flash that concussive force trigger the onset of PTSD that had never been normalized. He reacted to my desk lamp as if that was a threat to his well being, which increases the threat because on a level of consciousness, he knows it's not but his neurobiology was reactive to it. So it can be either a sense threat to well being or it can be a perceived threat to well being the way we think about things as human beings tends not to be actually rational. We tend to have what I call seemingly irrational, seemingly rational perceptions, or they may actually be irrational. And the degree to which we are caught up in that seemingly rational perception pattern, which is another part of all of this is the degree to which the stress that we are reactive to is either managed or perceived as manageable. And to the degree where we're not managing the stress or we don't perceive it or sense it as manageable, then we get caught up in this tsunami and this escalating pattern because of the underlying core issue.

Ruth Lorensson: 5:48

Yeah. So change itself, you know, there's some purpose for change. But it's whether or not, we sense it as a threat, or whether we sense it as an opportunity.

Tom Pals: 6:00

Exactly.

Ruth Lorensson: 6:00

Yes. And one of the ways you've described to me about the core issues are, that they're these parts of our being that are like a building, that actually when it's like different levels of a building in us and one one starts to fall, the other starts to fall, and they almost have a pattern of its of their own, but that interact with this tsunami of stress. Would you talk about that a little bit more?

Tom Pals: 6:26

I've likened it to a four storey building or four dominoes that are stacked. And what happens is that they are functionally unsound, they're unstable. And that primary core issue that every human being struggles with, and the ones who say they don't are just not being truthful, hearing what other people would tell them. That fundamental core issue is a sense of inadequacy and insecurity. Now, that may be very specific to a particular situation or issue. It may be generalized across the board, all sorts of different ones. But the sense is of inadequacy, and insecurity. And that produces a sense of incapability, I can't manage this situation, I can't cope with this. And so that is why we experience a sense of stress and need, yeah. And that's different for me than it would be for you. And this particular thing may not affect you at all. And I'm losing my mind. And I'm getting all stressed out and full of need, about whatever that was because of my own prior life experiences. And that stress a need relates to and is a function of the inadequacy and insecurity.

Ruth Lorensson: 7:48

Wow. And so that's that, you know, that is actually the first stage of the tsunami. And that within that stage, the first core issue to really be affected, is this inadequacy and insecurity, that we all have, to some degree or another. Change happens. We are in this tsunami of stress, stress and need happens. And then we inevitably feel that inadequacy, or the insecurity that can come or those two different things?

Tom Pals: 8:18

Yes,

Ruth Lorensson: 8:18

Yeah. Would you explain that?

Tom Pals: 8:19

This security is a sense of I am safe?

Ruth Lorensson: 8:23

Yeah,

Tom Pals: 8:23

I'm secure. I can even be threatened but I can respond to that sense of threat incapability, insecurity and incapable is different from that. It's not just that I'm not safe. I can't. And I'm not able, I'm not capable of responding and managing this stress. Yeah, this issue.

Ruth Lorensson: 8:48

Yeah, I can really identify own I know that. For me, one of the things that I've struggled with in the past is is some hypochondria, which is actually something that not many people talk about, it feels like it's it's something that seems in my, my own journey that has been full of shame or condemnation. However, actually thinking back through that, that the inadequacy, the insecurity,'I can't even cope with it', that first feeling was the first I can identify with that the first feeling that came with that, that tsunami of stress that would inevitably come if I was in that cycle in that particular space. So yeah, I can I'm sure that that's applied in all sorts of different spaces, whatever the struggles may be. So then we've got this domino effect. So that's our first core issue. So what happens that next?

Tom Pals: 9:42

So then because of the stress of need that is activated, because of the core issue of inadequacy and insecurity. Then where that escalates into from that flee the threat is into a fight the threat response where I experience a sense of distress, and discontent. I'm not a happy camper, and I'm definitely not able to become a happy camper. Because the core issue that follows on the inadequacy and insecurity is a sense of feeling powerless. And I sense myself as powerless. I believe myself to be powerless, I perceive myself to be powerless, which doesn't even mean that's actually the truth or reality. But that is my sensed core issue. I'm powerless. Well, why am I powerless? Because I'm inadequate and insecure. Well, of course, I would be powerless then to do anything about it. Being powerless, I experience a sense of distress and discontent. So I fight the threat.

Ruth Lorensson: 10:45

Rig ht. Wow. So that's the second stage of tsunami and then the second core issue, and feeling powerless. I'm sure so many of our listeners would identify with that. I think that feeling is just such a human feeling. And it's, it's awful. Oh, yes. And no. When do we find we're trying to get out of that sense of feeling powerless.

Tom Pals: 11:08

Powerlessness is why we have what we would what I have what is called negative anticipation, we expect something bad to happen. We miss read people's responses, we miss read situations, and we anticipate something negative. And the reason we anticipate it as a negative is because we sense that we are powerless to do anything about it. Yes, and I can't affect change in a positive direction. And the direction of the change is anticipated to be negative.

Ruth Lorensson: 11:42

So we in some ways we will project or self self protecting that situation to try to avoid, which is the fight. It's like, I'm not going to sit here and be powerless. I'm going to fight this.

Tom Pals: 11:53

Yes, exactly. And that may just escalate the situation further. Because then either the person or the situation or whatever it is that I'm dealing with. I'm not effectively managing. I'm not in the zone and dealing with a challenge. I am starting to screw things up. And my performance suffers. And I just am more and more distressed and discontented with the situation because inadequate and insecure and powerless, and then it escalates from that flee the threat inadequacy and insecurity, fight the threat. feeling powerless. It's still there. That threat is still there. It hasn't been managed. It hasn't been addressed. It hasn't even been perceived as well, this could be a positive thing. Yeah, this could actually be beneficial change. But it's a change in a negative direction. And so the tsunami escalates into avoidance and isolation. Because the core issue attached to this now flee the threat, because I tried fleeing, I tried fighting, I'm back to fleeing. Because the core issue with this is a lack of control. And now it's all about control. And I don't have it, the situation has it, the other person has it, society has it, something has it, they have it, somebody has it, but I don't have it, and I lack control. And the reason that we avoid an isolate is because we sense and perceive ourselves as having a lack of control. And this is a control issue.

Ruth Lorensson: 13:33

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you can see the escalation there, even in the core issues, without you know, and then pull them into the tsunami of stress to, and why people just like suddenly back off. And, you know, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? In some ways, if you're feeling inadequate, and secure, you're powerless. And now suddenly, it's like, well, I can't, I can't control it. So I may as well just get away somewhere and hide myself under a rock.

Tom Pals: 14:02

And that is a way to control.

Ruth Lorensson: 14:04

Yes,

Tom Pals: 14:05

I am in control, why? I'm gone. I am in control because I'm not around. I'm not here. I'm not involved.

Ruth Lorensson: 14:15

And what do you like? Have you seen what would you describe the behavior in that space? Have you seen any examples of that?

Tom Pals: 14:22

Oh, countless. I was a psychotherapy, I've been a psychotherapist for 20 plus years, and I treated offenders, I have treated victims, I was a minister, I saw all sorts of ways that people would use even their spiritual beliefs as an escape. And a way to not have to deal with things and ways that we avoid and isolate. Sometimes we just don't talk or we shift the subject or we literally get up and walk away. And the message inherently is flee the threat, I'm out of here? Because I have this lack of control, I can't control what's happening, so I'm out.

Ruth Lorensson: 15:12

Yeah, you're right, this in some ways it is trying, the avoidance and isolation is a plea in some ways to try and gain control. So I'm in control, if I can avoid it, or if I can't avoid it, maybe I'll just isolate. And then I don't even have to deal with it. It's really interesting.

Tom Pals: 15:28

But what we don't deal with doesn't get better, too.

Ruth Lorensson: 15:33

Right.

Tom Pals: 15:33

It's like having weeds in the lawn, you don't deal with it, then you stop having a lot. And then you have weeds. And then it escalates again, because we tried to flee the threat because of the inadequacy and insecurity. And then we tried to fight the threat because of a sense of feeling powerless, then we tried to avoid and isolate. And that was just a matter of who's got control. And I'm out of here, and then it escalates because the original threat may not have gone away. It's still there. It's still existing. And that's when we get into that fourth stage of the tsunami of stress, which is resistance, I don't want to deal with this. And this is fight, defiance, I'm not going to deal with this. And then we're angry at someone could be ourselves could be others a situation and we are angry. And then we are not assertive, because of the core issue that's attached to resistance defines anger and not being assertive, is poor self image and low self esteem. The image the way we think about ourselves, our image of ourselves is poor. And that may be a function of comparison to others who don't have that, or I'm bad in comparison to others, or I'm lacking in comparison to others, or people have really reacted to me and told me that I lacking in that. And it's a self image issue. And it's a poor self image. And then the opposite side of that same coin of self, where one side is the image, think about, like a coin, usually has an image of something on one side, and the other side is self esteem. How much is the coin worth? And it's devaluing. And these are the core issues? Why is the image poor? And why is the worth low? Because I don't have control, and I am being controlled or something is controlling me? Or I don't have it? Why don't I have control? Because I'm powerless to do anything about it? And why do I think I'm powerless, because I'm inadequate and insecure, and I really don't want to deal with that.

Ruth Lorensson: 17:46

I just really appreciate hearing those, I think they're so identifiable, you know, when I think about my own experience, but just the human condition, you know, these four core, and when I do I love your image of these, like four storeys of a building, and when one kind of starts falling, you start seeing the foundations crumbling a little bit, or that domino, domino effect too. But the poor self image, what we think of ourselves, and then how much worth we attribute to ourselves. You can imagine, well I can imagine, in the tsunami of stress, we've got change happening, we sense this perceived threat, and then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, it's like, like dominoes. We get these core issues really get attacked, or knocked. And I'm sure, would you would you say that for some of us? I mean, I would imagine that all they apply to all of us, right? But do you find that some people have one that's like more? Absolutley. Yeah.

Tom Pals: 18:51

That's why what will stress me out and cause a great sense of need for me, doesn't affect you. But it will affect me, and what affects you and is a source of, I've just got to have that or temptation or stress or need or whatever that is, I'm not touched by it. That's not my issue. Yeah. Because those things go back into our own personal histories of things that we've experienced and those and whether it's, a four storey structure, and the bottom of it starts to collapse, and then everything collapses in on itself, or it's dominoes that fall one after the other. It's just a reaction, which is flee and fight and flee and fight.

Ruth Lorensson: 19:34

And then that all over again,

Tom Pals: 19:36

All over again. And going back to the tsunami, if we were to take the time. They just repeat.

Ruth Lorensson: 19:44

Yeah. And so within the flee the fight the flight, we've got the these core issues just into weaving through all of them. Yeah. And one of the things that I wanted, you mentioned this, I think earlier just about change. I think it's just a fascinating topic. You know, the reason why we're in the tsunami, and the reason why we're experiencing core issues in the tsunami is because we're sensing that threat which we talked about, you know, this is these are some people use the word triggers or you know, things that we've we're experiencing now, but actually, what's happening is like 30 years ago, or whatever, you're experiencing the whole history all in one, two minute, reaction, which is why we overreact at times to certain things. But I think with change, there's also an opportunity in there. I'd love to unpack that a little bit. And I think even in with the core issues, these spaces have, in some ways, vulnerability, in the tsunami of stress, there's also core strengths. And there's a reason why those things are core issues, because they're also potentially core strengths, would you talk a little bit more about that?

Tom Pals: 21:05

Change just is, and and change can be experienced as beneficial stress, or detrimental stress, but change just is. For there not to be any change. Just talk to someone in a situation that is stagnant. Where nothing changes, someone, elderly person in a nursing home, there is no change every day is exactly the same as the last day. And that is incredibly stressful, even as they're trying to have things change. Well, no, no change is as stressful as all sorts of change that's constant, and nothing is settled. Human beings like a sense of yes, there's enough that's changed and interesting, but enough, that's familiar, to be okay with, and I can manage and cope. So either way, it's about change. And if we are alive, we experience change.

Ruth Lorensson: 22:06

And change can be a good thing?

Tom Pals: 22:08

Change is a good thing. It's just our perception of it. And the potential in it, the opportunity in it, or this is not an opportunity. And because of those perceptions, which will be the subject of another podcast, those seemingly rational perceptions that happen in a very distinctive pattern. That all being said, these core issues because of seemingly rational perceptions, because of distorted experiences of relationships and situations, happens because of past experiences, what was modeled for us what was rewarded for us what was imposed on us. And those core issues on the one side of the spectrum, actually, on the other side of the spectrum, which is actually rational, which is managed change, which is a sense of this is an opportunity, those core issues actually have an opposite alternative, which is a sense of core strengths. And the core strengths are just as real, and I would argue are actually rational, just as much if not more than the core issues are, they just don't feel that way. Because the stress has not been normalized, and we're reactive to it in the flea, fight, flea, fight, escalation.

Ruth Lorensson: 23:42

So in some ways, this tsunami of stress there, when we're not, not when we're unable to manage stress, it's out of control. We're in that cycle. That's when it pulls us into these core issues. But if we can normalize stress, which we do in autonomic healing, which is the good news, then we can enter into a space where these core issues suddenly become core strengths.

Tom Pals: 24:06

Yes. And the core issue of inadequacy and insecurity can become a core strength of security and capability. I am secure. I am capable. Does that mean I'm not threatened? No, I'm secure. Why do I have a sense of being secure? Because I'm capable. Yeah, and are incapable. And that feeds security.

Ruth Lorensson: 24:34

I mean, it's an entirely different way of approaching change, isn't it? So you know, the same thing can happen? The very same set of circumstances could happen to someone. And if they're in the tsunamis, stress, then there's this like, I can't, I'm like inadequate, I'm insecure, it is overwhelming. Whereas actually, if stress is normalized, then It's not like it's all great, but I'm capable. I'm not overwhelmed. Yeah, I'm, I'm secure in this. And the, in some ways the, the circumstances don't have such a huge impact,

Tom Pals: 25:13

They aren't determinative of well being, because homeostasis and activating homeostasis, is well being. I have a sense of well being, I have a sense of contentment. Does that mean I'm happy? Maybe? Maybe not. But I'm content, it's okay. And what is the opportunity? And this is far more than just positive thinking, this is a realistic appraisal of what is the possibility in this, what is the opportunity in this rather than looking at the threat and the liability, and this is a terrible thing. And I'm insecure and incapable? Well, I can become secure and capable, I can grow, I can learn from this, I can love in this. I can act in service in this. All sorts of possibilities. Because change just is. It's our perception of the change our experience of the change. And that sense of that core strength, that initial one allows us to experience a sense of contentment, I am secure, I am capable. Now, does that mean I can do everything that I can protect myself entirely? It's not necessary, but in this, I can manage this.

Ruth Lorensson: 26:26

I mean, it's huge, really, when you think about human beings, you know, if we all could access this, and how the dynamics would shift so dramatically, if we, you know, could navigate change circumstances, even hardship, with this sense of security and feeling capable of navigating, I mean, it's a real game changer, just that one.

Tom Pals: 26:53

And then allows us a sense of contentment, and then what can build from that in and we're talking about rational intimacy. Now, that's a totally different paradigm than the tsunami of stress. But in Rational intimacy, it begins with a sense of contentment, which is that core strength of secure and capable and then that can build into, this is not dominoes falling, this is not some negative dynamic. This is a very beneficial dynamic. And it shifts then, along with the sense of security and capability to a sense of feeling empowered, I'm secure, I'm capable. That's empowering. And I can act, not only am I secure and capable, I am empowered, and I can move forward with things. And what that allows us is to experience the second stage in Rational intimacy, which I call the second stage is grace. And with grace, that word has a dual meaning. Its grace, is a sense of poise. I can manage this. Grace Under Fire, poise, while stressed. Because I am empowered. But Grace also is a word that is often associated, and historically, back in the Greek times. Karios, it was a word that meant a gift. And being empowered, and empowering people is a gift. And it's this wonderful gift. And the more we are empowered, the more of a gift that is sensed and experienced as and the more we can see things as gifts, and poise. And those go hand in glove, which is the hand in glove doesn't matter. But that allows me in that sense of contentment, to be empowered, and I can act, and then that escalates and builds and increases into the third stage of rational intimacy, which is a sense of engagement. I'm content. I'm empowered. I'm gifted, I have piose, and then that grows into that third stage of rational intimacy, which is engagement. I'm connected, I'm involved, I'm engaged. I'm not running. Far from it. I'm involved, I'm connected. And the reason for that is because it's not an issue of control. That third core strength is influence. And we are influential in a very beneficial way in our own lives, in a situation in the relationship and we are influential.

Ruth Lorensson: 29:41

Wow. It's so different, isn't it from what we described in the tsunami of stress and their core issues. So instead of feeling the powerlessness of that second core issue, you're empowered, and, and, and in that space of grace, it's a real gift, instead of distress, discontent, grace, and then moving on from that, that third core strength of being influential, instead of this lack of control, which sends us into isolation. We have this ability to influence and bring our own change into the situation

Tom Pals: 30:22

controls an illusion anyway.

Ruth Lorensson: 30:24

And what about the fourth, you know, that fourth core issue, which was poor self image and low self esteem? What's the core strength, like what's the the opposite in Rational intimacy.

Tom Pals: 30:39

The alternative then, is a healthy self image. And a sober self esteem. Healthy self image, I have an image of myself, it's a healthy one, it's not a negative one, it is a healthy, vibrant. This is me, this is my image. I mean, I'm a person, I matter, I'm significant. And a sober self esteem and I use sober self esteem is one of the things that I've noticed over the course of my career is that human beings tend to struggle in one direction or another related to self esteem. There are those who are all about themselves, and they are God's gift to the world. And they are it. And that is an overly inflated sense of self esteem. We can think too much of ourselves, and the other people are going, really, okay, great good luck with that. But I know you really well. And that seems to be a bit of an inflated self esteem. But there's the opposite that we started with too. And that's a negative self esteem. Pool poor self esteem, we don't think of ourselves realistically, or value ourselves to the degree that we certainly can and should. And when I do psychological testing, those are the things that invalidate. It's either random responding, they're not answering consistently, or their answers are overly inflated. And it's like, are you actually a human being? Then do you have issues? No, really? Okay. Well, that's not a valid psychological profile. Or it is so pessimistic. It is so negative, about self, just running the person down. It's like, no, you're not the worst human being who has ever inhabited the planet. It's not realistic. So we tend to err one direction or another. And that's why I talk about a sober self esteem. To see ourselves as worth but I'm not either the worst thing that's ever happened in the world, nor the best, or the greatest. I'm me, and I feel good about that.

Ruth Lorensson: 32:53

Yeah, I think that's a freeing, isn't it? Because I think you can swing the other way. You know, I come from more of the, like, low, low self esteem.

Tom Pals: 33:03

That's a pretty common one,

Ruth Lorensson: 33:04

I think so. But what we don't want to do is like, have another false sense of worth, in the opposite direction. And then also, I love the word, I love those two words healthy self image, because that is about understanding who we are. And not projecting, you know, we have all of the I think people get caught up in wanting to be like someone else, or having a false sense of our own projected sense of who we might be, or people projected onto us. Exactly. From upbringing. Absolutely. But I think what we're talking about here is to say, to be healthy, it's to be content with who we actually are. And that that being that person is, is the best place we can be.

Tom Pals: 33:56

Yes, and it's all about our reaction, or response to change. Change just is, and we can be reactive to it. Or we can respond to it. And there's all the world of difference between being reactive, and responding. And that's choice. And we always have a choice. We frequently don't even believe we do. But it doesn't mean we don't we do. And then it's either the tsunami and we try to breathe underwater. Or we really breathe and live and enjoy our lives.

Ruth Lorensson: 34:32

I'm just thinking about that last core strength in Rational intimacy and the benefit of I think there's just a sense of relief of being healthy, being sober in our world. And what that looks like, what does that freedom look like? Would you just talk into that a little bit more?

Tom Pals: 34:55

It means I don't have to be someone I'm not, even if other people, people think of me that way, and want to impose that on me. Or I tried to impose that on myself. I can be content. And then I can appreciate who I am and what I've accomplished. There was a story that I shared with you one point, and I was I love climb fourteeners. Although I swear at 65, they're much higher than 14,000 feet. But I'm sure it's probably not that they are higher, it's just that I'm getting older. Anyway, my point is, I love to climb the 14,000 foot peaks, and I've done nearly 20 of them over the years. And with climbing a peak, there is always this idea of did you summit? I have a very different take on that. And this isn't a rational and just then justification for one, I haven't summit. It's the idea of, the summit is as far as you can go, there is a limit, the top of the mountain is the top of the mountain, and unless you can flap your arms and fly, that's as high as you're gonna go. That is your limit of capability. And you've reached that. So is this an external or an internal thing. And I was climbing this is some years ago, and I was climbing with my brother and my nephews. And one of my nephew's has some physical difficulties with balance. And when the trail started to get much more rough, and there's the scree that's the loose gravel and that sort of thing. That was the limit of his ability to balance and climb. And that was as high as he could get. And my other nephew, hockey player and soccer player and all that he was ready to go and he could keep going. And my brother and I had a conversation about what do we do at this juncture? And I said, Why don't you go on? You've never been to the top of a fourteener. And why don't you go. And I'll I've been actually had been up to the top of that one several times. And so I said, oh, I'll go back, and we'll go down. And I pointed out a particular patch of snow. And I thought this might be helpful to my other nephew who is going back down with me. And they say, I want you to look at that patch of snow. And I want you to focus on it and memorize it. He said, Okay. And then we went down, and we got to the bottom. And as we were waiting for my brother and his brother to come back down from as far as they had gotten to the summit, and I didn't know whether they got to the summit or not. And as we were waiting, I pointed back up toward that patch of snow. And it wasn't that far from the peak. But it wasn't the peak, which many people think, well you didn't summit. And I looked at that. And I pointed it out to him. And I said, Look at how much of the mountain you climbed, and how little is left. And I said, you reached as far as you could go. When your brother and my brother get down, they will have reached as far as they could go. That was their summit. And that patch of snow was right by your summit. So well done. You summited a fourteener. Wow. Now are there those who would take issue with that and say, well, no, he didn't. Yeah, he did. That's the truth. That's the reality. And that is all the difference between inadequacy and insecurity and feeling powerless and a lack of control, and getting into poor self image of low self esteem or a sense of contentment, and secure and capable to have gotten that far. And to have summited. And then that sense of feeling empowered. I did that, that was an accomplishment. And then that sense of being influential, positively in his own life, and in other people's lives. If you shared that story that could be very influential, and other people's that's influential could be in his own life, and then the healthy self image, and the sober self esteem.

Ruth Lorensson: 39:15

I love that story Tom. It's just really striking and impact. It's empowering for all of us to know that. You know, I think the drivenness that is very present in our western culture is, we don't even enjoy the successes that we achieve because we're so worried about this small bit of mountain that we haven't climbed and so I think being able to live presently in that space is incredibly freeing and powerful.

Tom Pals: 39:52

My son and daughter are avid climbers and outdoor adventures and things like that and together they a couple of years ago, a volcanic peak covered with snow in South America. And they'd gotten near the top and the ice and the snow was unstable, and it was not safe to continue. And they made the decision wisely, not to risk that. And to turn around and come back, they summited that. They did. And they live to tell about it. And they could enjoy and appreciate that accomplishment. And I'm so proud of them for that. I've climbed like I say, and I have reached the top limit geographically of how high I could go for about 18 fourteneers. Have I climbed to the top of every single one? No, if there is lightning, you turn around and you go back, or you shelter behind a boulder or something, any number of times it's climbing the mountain. That's the point.

Ruth Lorensson: 40:59

I love that, that there's a journey for us all to recognize our own limits. And, and,that's where that sober self worth comes from. That healthy self image comes from. We're kind of centered on that space, and we get to celebrate the summit in our lives.

Tom Pals: 41:20

And then we're influential in a beneficial way in our own lives and in the lives of others. And we're empowered, and we empower others, because we can experience a sense of contentment is life what I would want it to be at this moment. I can name half a dozen or more reasons not. I can also give you a much longer list of ways that it is. Why? Because of that sense of security and capability.

Ruth Lorensson: 41:52

Yep, thank you, Tom. I've enjoyed this conversation and we'll be talking more about rational intimacy, autonomic healing activation as we continue. We'll look forward to the next one.

Tom Pals: 42:08

You've been listening to the autonomic healing podcast.

Ruth Lorensson: 42:11

Join us next time as we continue in our conversations with Tom. If you're interested in pursuing your own autonomic healing journey and want to find a practitioner, visit our website inner workings.org See you at the next episode.