The Autonomic Healing Podcast - Conversations with Tom Pals
Welcome to the Autonomic Healing Podcast! We'd love you to follow and join Tom, Ruth, and friends as they explore the beneficial impact autonomic healing has on the mind, body, and spirit. Autonomic healing activates the brain to normalize the flight or fight reaction and holistically manages stress & trauma.
The Autonomic Healing Podcast - Conversations with Tom Pals
Open to Change
What if embracing change could transform your life from mere survival to thriving? Join us in this episode as we uncover the transformative power of being open to change.
We begin by exploring the profound implications of the word "open" and how it contrasts with the rigidity of being "closed." Openness invites curiosity, receptivity, and a willingness to question the status quo. Using real-life examples like seasonal shifts and parenting during long summer vacations, we illustrate how adaptability is not just a survival skill but a catalyst for personal growth.
Next, we dive into the concept of homeostasis, often misunderstood as a static state of equilibrium. Instead, we reveal homeostasis as a dynamic process of constant adjustment, much like the precarious balance of a Jenga game. This metaphor helps us understand how small changes can disturb our perceived equilibrium, triggering survival instincts. By redefining homeostasis as a state of persistent, dynamic disequilibrium, we emphasize that embracing change isn't just about coping—it's about thriving.
We also dissect the nature of first-order and second-order changes, highlighting the difference between incremental adjustments and transformational shifts. Through engaging discussions, we advocate for diagnosing underlying issues rather than just addressing symptoms, particularly in areas like health and well-being. We conclude by exploring how second-order change can lead to profound transformations, empowering us to tackle personal, organizational, and global challenges with bold, systemic solutions.
Tune in to this enlightening episode to discover how being open to change can be the key to unlocking your full potential.
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Welcome to the Autonomic Healing Podcast. I'm Tom Pels.
Speaker 2:And I'm Ruth Lawrenson. We'll be unpacking what it looks like to activate your brain to holistically manage stress and trauma. That bring healing to the mind, body and spirit.
Speaker 1:Being free to live authentically as humans.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us. Let's get this conversation started.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we are continuing the conversation and I'm leading off just for change, because, oh, as Ruth suggested, an idea, oh, can be open to change, and I think that's fabulous, open to change, and I think that's fabulous. So, ruth, why did you suggest open to change?
Speaker 2:Well, obviously, because we're landing on the letter O and I was like, oh well, what is? And I think you know in this little mini series that we're doing the ABCs of thriving. It's been such an interesting way of going through the alphabet and just picking these words and we love words right, so it's like taking these words and we love words right.
Speaker 2:So it's like taking these words and thinking, well, what does thriving look like? Um, so the obviously we came at this one this episode is about. Oh, and I was just thinking. Well, first off, I just thought I love that word open. There's like what's it, you know, when human beings are open as opposed to closed? I mean, there's just so much there, tom, to talk about in that word Especially when it comes to thriving, yeah, and not just surviving.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Closed is all about surviving.
Speaker 2:And open as well doesn't necessarily mean that you are all signed up or it's just open. You're just like you're.
Speaker 2:the posture of being open is to me, it's like it's like you're being receptive or curious, or questioning, or and then, and then I think the word change is you know when I think about think the word change is you know when I think about I mean, and there's a whole you know can of worms in that word that we're going to go into in a minute, and and so much, uh, positive positivity as well. Um, but I thought you know, actually, when I think about thriving in today's world or any world, really being open to change as human beings feels like really central and key to me to thrive, and so I just texted you and I was like hey, how about this?
Speaker 2:um, and most of the ideas for this have come from you, and and and been developed as we've had conversations, but I texted you, um not long ago and just said what, what do you think about this? For the letter o, and you were. You were interested in that too, and so that's what we're going to talk about today is being open to change, and so let's start off like when we were talking earlier and we always have a pre-conversation conversation too, so that it's not just rambling.
Speaker 1:It does fit and it has a trajectory when we do record it. But early on, when we were just sitting and talking, you were talking about change and we are quite literally in a season of change. A season of change it's shifting from winter into spring, and spring has apparently sprung, but we're in Colorado so you never quite know. But it appears that spring has.
Speaker 2:Spring is complex in Colorado. Let's put it that way If I was spring in Colorado, I'd go and get therapy.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so you're approaching the end of a school year with your kids and there's going to be change in your schedule and you're talking about that change yeah and what do I do with that?
Speaker 1:and one of the things that really struck me related to open to change and this conversation this morning is that you're trying to navigate that parent time in your kids lives at the age they are where. What am I doing with summer? What are the kids doing with summer? Because school not in session and having enough there that occupies them without it being extraordinarily burdensome, keeping track of everything and just or not enough yeah and you mentioned that for the first two weeks probably good to go, but then they hit boredom yeah
Speaker 2:I'm bored, netflix becomes another child in the household at that point yes, and boredom is is an indication of stagnation yeah things are not changing.
Speaker 1:so change is and change is life. Life, life is change, change just is, and stagnation no change, that's not beneficial.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not at all, and that's what I think I've discovered in these summer times with the children. Just so you know, in England kids have six weeks holiday there here in colorado, apparently because of the farming that's where it started, which is largely irrelevant now, I know it's 12 weeks summer vacation, so I think there's this sense of all the parents are we're ready for a break, but then we also sense this kind of like oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?
Speaker 1:for 12 weeks. I remember, yeah, when my kids were younger, and so, yes, and what you just mentioned is an indication of the shift, the change that's happened in the united states, that's gone from an agrarian model and people lived on the farm. And why weren't the kids in school? Because you had to have farm hands and big families and workers, and there's so much that's bustling in summertime and so much to be done in the summertime. You needed hands, so they can't be at school. And yet that model has continued, when it's largely irrelevant for the vast majority of the population, and yet it lingers. Why? Because resisting change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, for example, in that small example of my kids, you know shifting seasons to summertime and it is fun and all the rest of it I could be. I mean, I could be close to it, I could put my head in the sand and just go. I'm just not even thinking about it, I'm going to pretend that that is not happening and that would be awful, that if I did that, that would every.
Speaker 2:No one would be happy for 12 weeks and in my household, um, but the idea of being open to change to to go. Okay, it's a new season, so how do I partner with this season and and how can I be influential in that?
Speaker 2:I think, that that's, that's what we're talking about here, and that can be applied not just to kids being on summer. But I mean, you know, change is happening all around us and it can it can be applied to our individual lives. It can be applied to, uh, some of the the big changes that are happening on a worldwide level, as, as human beings, are we open to change? Are we willing to be open to the change that's happening around us and enter into it, as opposed to, um, not entering into it? So those but we're kind of already happening to a few like uh, areas that I'd love us to kind of go a bit deeper into. Have you got any that you want to start us off on?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Go on then.
Speaker 1:Because, surprise, homeostasis. Why homeostasis and change? Because all these many little lives that we've been talking about, whether those are the many little lives of kids, and where are they and what are they doing, or the many little lives of us in our careers, or us in relationships, and all of that. The Theophile de Bordeaux used the metaphor of many little lives to express the concept of homeostasis observable in organisms. And there is always change. Change just is, and so, whether it's the insect colonies or the colonies of cells inside our own bodies, at different seasons and in different situations, that's always happening. There's this constant churning of all those many little lives, and so there is a persistent and dynamic disequilibrium. Equilibrium is everything is balanced.
Speaker 1:When we were early on and I was pondering this idea of open to change, I had an image of the Jenga game. And why did I think of that? Is because that game and if you're familiar with Jenga, if you're not but it's a tower of blocks that you build and each level is like three blocks and the game, once you construct the tower, is to keep pushing out and pulling out individual blocks, and the idea is that you want to be able to pull out a block and not topple the structure and the game is. Try to be the one, because with each block that's removed, it becomes more and more precarious aka change and it feels more and more precarious, which for some is a really exciting game and for others it's like oh no.
Speaker 1:And you don't want to be the last one to pull a block and change the structure so that it all topples down and change can feel like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're in survival mode and in Jenga you're surviving and you want to be the one that survived, not the one that didn't. And it toppled when you pulled the change. You pulled the block and changed something. Change can feel like that. When you're in a survival mentality, change is a threat. You want equilibrium, you don't want change because it's another thing to have to deal with and also it's the anticipation.
Speaker 2:I think for jenga it's the anticipation. I think for Jenga it's the anticipation of that block coming down which we all know is super noisy, and it's like it shocks you slightly, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:It's like ah, and you know, and so I think that there's, when you're in survival mode and approaching change, the anticipation of it being noisy and shocking and disruptive, and that's it, you know. Of it being noisy and shocking and disruptive, and that's it, you know. I'm just thinking now of pulling that last Jenga block out and just like, that's the nervousness right, because you're like am I going to cause this?
Speaker 1:Yes, and is this change that's happening in my life going to be that last Jenga block and my tower comes crashing down? And my tower comes crashing down With homeostasis? The renowned French physiologist, claude Bernard, asserted in the 19th century that what would later be termed homeostasis by Walter Cannon was the condition for life itself. The fixity of the internal environment is the condition of a free and independent life. But that is change. Fundamentally. Dr Walter Cannon took inspiration from Bernard in his study of the physiology of the human stress response. He's the one who devised the phrase flight or fight, which my preference would be not flight but avoid. So we're trying to avoid the sensed threat to well-being, whether that's holding still and freezing or running away really fast. We're trying to avoid the sensed or perceived threat, and change can be sensed or perceived as a threat.
Speaker 1:And it activates the sympathetic nervous system and then fight. My preference isn't fight, because it kind of fisticuffs and hurtful words and all the rest of that, but fight in the sense of manage. So we're trying to manage the threat. If we can't avoid the threat, then we try to manage the threat.
Speaker 2:But the point is with all of those is that we're perceiving change as a threat. Yes, exactly which is why we're staying in survival, or staying in fight or flight, or fight and avoid, or you know whichever words you want to attribute to those. But the point is, when we're in survival, we see change as a threat rather than this beneficial, dynamic, homeostatic state. Would you say that's correct?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Instead of seeing it like that, that actually brings life and balance Is life. Yeah, it is life. When we see it as a threat, something that's coming against us, something that's going to take something from us, something that we're going to lose something, it's going to be the Jenga block that falls down. Then we end up being somewhere in fight or flight with this and where we're either trying to control it or manage it, or we're avoiding or freezing or something closed.
Speaker 1:So that's the closeness yes, which means that our fundamental posture related to change is not open. We're not open to change. So we're either trying to avoid change, which is certainly not open, or we're trying to manage change, which also is not open. And so this persistent dynamic disequilibrium, like in Jenga, something is always changing. Every time one of those blocks is removed, something is changing. There is a disequilibrium that's been introduced. It's not much of a fun game to build a block and then we all just sit and look at it.
Speaker 2:So, tom, I think this is really important because I think with homeostasis, that people misunderstand it. Sometimes. They think it's equilibrium.
Speaker 1:It is not.
Speaker 2:And it's not it's actually a constant dynamic state of managing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in response to the internal and external changes to facilitate life not only surviving, but thriving. I'm going to say that again Homeostasis is the persistent and dynamic disequilibrium in response to internal and external changes to facilitate life. Not only surviving, but thriving. If you were to ask anyone, are you open to thriving? Yeah, are you open to change? Ah, no, no, no, not so sure. Which change are you talking about? What kind of change are you talking about? How big a change are you talking about? But open to thriving? Yeah, it's open to change. Not open to change is not even sure of surviving.
Speaker 2:And what we know about homeostasis has been defined as life. It is life and a sense of well-being.
Speaker 1:Yep. As Scott Turner said, homeostasis is life.
Speaker 2:Okay, so and so, for what? The dynamic condition of homeostasis is this, it's, it is the it's change, it's the changes that are constantly occurring, like, if we take, if we take, homeostasis, even in our bodies, what's happening is is that this dynamic condition is constantly making adjustments to change all the time, and we need that for life and we need that for well-being. And so if we think about that like change, in that way where, actually, without the changes, without the, without the changes even in my season for a year as a parent, even though they might feel like oh no, this feels overwhelming or whatever, without them there isn't life and well-being right, and so it it really kind of it changes potential.
Speaker 2:Well, it absolutely changes the our relationship with change if we view it like that yes if we now, it's not to say that it isn't overwhelming, it's not to say it isn't challenging, it's not to say it doesn't it's change, doesn't feel, the feeling of change can either be really exciting or it can be really daunting.
Speaker 1:So there's a spectrum there of, of what?
Speaker 2:the impact of change that can happen. It there's a spectrum there of what the impact of change that can happen. There's a spectrum of really positive to all the way down to feeling like, oh, this doesn't feel that great. However, the truth is that that change or either a big change or lots of mini changes brings life Is life, Is life.
Speaker 1:And without that it isn't life, it's called death. So Walter Cannon, who created the term homeostasis, said the coordinated physiological processes which maintain most of the steady states in the organism. That's why it's confused with equilibrium. Homeostasis is not equilibrium, it's a steady state which is not equilibrium. It's a steady state. The coordinated physiological processes which maintain most of the steady states in the organisms are so complex and peculiar to living beings, involving as they may the brain and nerves, the heart, lung, kidneys and spleen, all working cooperatively, that I have suggested a special designation for these states Homeostasis.
Speaker 1:The word does not imply something set and immobile. That's what equilibrium is. It's something set. That's the nature.
Speaker 1:The word does not imply something set and immobile, a stagnation. It means a condition, a condition which may vary but is relatively constant, relatively constant. So even as that Jenga tower is being changed with the removal of all those blocks, it still stays up. Now, you remove too many of them, too much change that causes things to crumble, but no change is like sitting building the tower and looking at it. Oh, we're having fun now, bored. No change is life. So change, I hope we've gotten across, is something to be open to and not something to be avoided and certainly not something to try to manage, because when we are trying to avoid or manage, we are inevitably putting ourselves into a position of feeling insecure and inadequate. And when we are unable to avoid or manage, we may feel powerless and then it becomes a control issue. Or manage. We may feel powerless and then it becomes a control issue or with rational intimacy, which is why we feel secure and capable and change helps us feel secure and capable.
Speaker 2:Then we are empowered and we want to take a posture related to change, to be influential and that's the awesome part, I think, of being open to change. Is that, yeah, the way you're interacting with change, is that you're actually very influential within that space? Oh, absolutely Always.
Speaker 1:It's just how influential and in what ways am I influencing it? By avoiding it? I'm influential, but not in a positive way.
Speaker 2:By trying to manage it, I'm influential, but again, not in a positive way, because then I'm not open to change itself and I wonder as well, like whether one of the reasons why people can feel like it's a threat is because it can feel like change, can feel like it's happening to you, you know, or?
Speaker 1:you're out of control.
Speaker 2:Those types of feelings you know and so, but the the irony of it is to be closed to change is like you are more out of control because the change is going to happen whether we are open or closed, actually get it into play with it, to, to, you know, influence it, whereas to be closed or try and manage it, it actually is.
Speaker 2:You're worse off. Even though you think you're trying to, you know, be in control, you're actually far less in control than if you're open to change. Yep, where you can go, okay, this is you know, there's change afoot right now and that can be in on my life, that can be on a relationship level, that could be as a human being right now with some of the global challenges of the environment. That's one thing it's like are we open to change or are we closed? Being open means I'm a human being that isn't, you know, closed. Being open means I'm a human being that isn't, you know. I'm not gonna necessarily have to change my mind on everything, but I'm open. I'm open to the change effort and that means that I get to be influential within it, and I think that that is, yeah, very empowering position to be in.
Speaker 1:Yes. Now we get into the nature of change and the type of change. Yes, so there's change. We've established that Life is change, but there are two different types of change. There's what's called first-order change and second-order change. First-order change is making incremental changes or modifications, doing more or less of the same thing while staying within an existing system. That's first-order change. Second-order change, second order change. So with second order change, that's generally understood as being transformational and revolutionary in nature, seeing and doing something in a completely different manner, doing something in a completely different manner Second order change reestablishes.
Speaker 1:The way I like, the way I've put it, is that second order change reestablishes homeostatic conditions in a way that transforms the intervention change system itself. The reason that so much of existing health interventions are only effective to a point but not transformational, is because they are first-order change. Change, it's doing the same thing in more or less the same way and making incremental changes. When it comes to a lack of health and well-being and I'm not talking just physiological, I'm talking about mental, I'm talking about relational, I'm talking about emotional well-being, which is what homeostasis is there are times when it is necessary for there to be a transformational and revolutionary change, because there's only so much you can do to make incremental changes that don't fundamentally change the system. It's like living in a home that is a Jenga tower and you can make all the incremental changes but eventually the thing's going to collapse. You have to have a revolutionary and transformational second order change to that house itself.
Speaker 2:That's so good. And so the question is well that you know with, are we open to change? But are we open to second order change?
Speaker 1:There it is.
Speaker 2:Because there's a lot of people who will be open to first order change possibly, lot of people who will be open to first order change possibly. But there's a whole other ball game to be open to second order change, which is is to. I guess it's it's rethinking the system, it's diagnosing the disease, it's that it's the getting to the root of, uh, what is actually get, what is actually healthy or not healthy? Um, and the first order change, you know it's the band-aid, it's the okay, well, you've got a cut, let's, let's put a band-aid over that. But or, you know, it's the superficial, treating the symptoms of something and not actually getting to the root.
Speaker 2:Uh, treating the root disease yep and, and that's obviously not just in health but in organizations and systems and our own lives. That and the way we think the, the way we're treating the planet. I mean it could be applied to any space. But are we open to second order change? I think is such a poignant question, tom, and my goodness me. I feel like if we could, as a race, human race, get there and be open, be people who are like yeah, we're going to be influential in the, in that level of change, then that's incredibly envisioning to me yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So there are times where change in the first order making incremental adjustments and that sort of thing is called for and that's an appropriate type of change yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's not a bad thing, yeah, no, it's just that appropriate to this circumstance, this setting.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm in traffic and I'm making incremental changes, but at some point, if there is gridlock, I find a new road. I get off this road. I don't sit in the middle of it. I find a new path Because that's what's necessary and it's an openness to first or second order change, whichever is appropriate.
Speaker 2:That means we just don't sit in the gridlock and stagnate and just keep doing the same thing, even though we know that it's not getting us anywhere yep, yes, so there's open to change.
Speaker 1:And then there's the question of what type of change. Is this a moment for? First order change or is this a second order change? Am I gonna make incremental adjustments to keep my car safe in the flow of traffic going a little slower, a little faster, changing a lane, changing back, or do I just get off the road and I get on to an entirely new journey?
Speaker 2:So what's it take? I'm curious what's it take? Because when you think about first order change, it feels like because when you think about, uh, first order change, you know being, it feels like that's more adjusting, that's more like I would imagine it's being open, it's being more like flexible being that type of thing you know to be able to be open to that type of change.
Speaker 2:It's like. It's like my kids summer. It's like you know. You know I'm making adjustments. I'm still I am not changing what I'm doing. I'm still doing this podcast, I'm still studying my MBA, I still I'm still a leadership coach, but during those three months I'm going to be adjusting slightly to accommodate that change. But so I'm just, I think for me, when I think about the attributes that are needed to be open, our flexibility and you know that type of thing. But for second order, change what is needed, like what is what is needed in us to be people who are open to that, you know, like is there a difference or what is that?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I think one. It's a willingness to risk in a healthy way, identifying, no matter how many incremental changes I make, this doesn't work. How do I know that? It's the sense of am I surviving or am I thriving, am I alive or am I living? And if I don't have that sense of being living and thriving, try the first order changes and be open to that. But if those don't work, then it's time for something revolutionary and transformational. It's time for a second order change.
Speaker 2:And so that takes and I think that's helpful because it is, you know, like. So first order change can work in certain situations. So there's discernment isn't there in those spaces and I do think that you know, know, even as we're looking at some of the, the global challenges that we're facing in terms of the environment right now, and just some of the innovation that's coming out, like, uh, with fuel and all sorts of stuff, it is, it's that second, a lot of it is that second order change. That's happening where for decades, we've been doing the tweaks, we've been trying to make it better, but I think people are going actually, this doesn't work. We need to. We need to overhaul the, the way we're even thinking about products or buying things, or, you know, circular economy.
Speaker 2:All of that stuff is all of that stuff is second order change and um, but then you know you could also have that in terms of a family system, or yeah, uh, or you know or a career, or a career like you just keep making the changes but at some point you think actually this is not working and so but it takes it's a much thriving it's a much bigger, braver, courageous move right for second order change.
Speaker 2:To be open to that, yes. But it can be incredibly life-giving to embrace a second order change where you've been stuck in a system that, no matter what you're doing, maybe it makes it slightly better, but it's kind of broken from the outset.
Speaker 2:To be able to move from that to a new paradigm that works, that is going to give you life, that is going to set you on a trajectory and it will demand risk. You need to be courageous because it's like a lot more, but it's like hugely beneficial and life-giving so nature itself exists this way.
Speaker 1:If you think about it, the seasons that change, they transition from one to another. It's not an abrupt. It's zero degrees in winter and now it's 90 degrees and it's summer. The seasons themselves change, but if you think about the overall picture, there is a revolutionary and transformational difference between the dead of winter and the height of summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are revolutionary.
Speaker 1:They happen gradually. I think that being open to change is navigating the transitions so that we're always in season.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's thriving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good. I've never thought of it like that. And there is this, I think also with change as well. Um, it is, it's, it's, it's just, things are evolving, right with the seasons. That it's like you do, you lose. I always think with the seasons it's hilarious because, like summer happens, and then by the end of summer we're so over the heat, right and exactly but then we're longing for like by the summer.
Speaker 1:I'm longing for those gorgeous colors of fall I am like longing for the little trips in the air yeah, all of that and then, but but then you know, after about a month of that, I'm like fires and I'm sweating and I can't get enough clothes off because it's 100 degrees outside and I've got the air conditioning going but in the dead of winter, a cozy fire wrapping up in a snug. Oh, that's lovely too. Thriving.
Speaker 2:But the point is actually, if it was only one ever, it would lose the joy, it would lose the life, it would lose the specialness of that season, and so we all know that we all go through those things right now. As we've mentioned, my kids are entering in summer.
Speaker 2:We're excited for summer. We're like the pool's going to be open, you know you can drive around and you've got a nice car that's got the roof off, and you know. So there's this excitement about summer. So I think that's the you can take the roof off and, uh, you know. So there's this excitement about summer. So I think that's the point of change.
Speaker 2:But it's if we see change as a threat, where we're losing something, right, so it's a very negative way of like, oh, no, change is happening, but I'm worried that I'm going to lose this thing. That is my current situation, which I think is a core of why a lot of people see it as a threat, as a threat. But instead, if we can shift, instead of seeing, yeah, you will lose something, like when you come out of summer into fall, you will lose summer for a while to go, but you're going to gain something different. And so I think it's for me, it's about not worrying about losing. It's not losing something, it's just almost. It's like partnering with this awesome journey that gives you variety, life, new opportunities, new experiences, and it's and everything's just evolving, so nothing's actually lost. I think, if we get that, if we hold on to that, that, you know, are things lost, like you were saying in our pre-conversation? Just in terms of, um, just even in the way that, uh, like you know, water changes into energy, energy is never lost.
Speaker 1:It just changes form.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:And without change there's no transformation.
Speaker 2:And so I think the reason why I say that is just to try and get underneath the fear, because I think there is fear around change and I understand it. Just to try and get underneath the fear because I think there is fear around change and I understand it. I think, you know, even with my kids, we've talked about them in this episode a bit and but just you know that they're going into teenage land right now, which is going to be a whole thing, and and sometimes, you know, I can look at my photos of when they were babies. I'm like, oh, like any parent would just like, oh, you know, and if I think I've lost that, I've lost that time, that could make me not enjoy the moments now. But instead of seeing it like that, just seeing it as this is this wild journey that I get to go on with my kids, nothing's lost. It's all evolving from one, you know, like it's like energy, from going from one stage to the next, to the next, one form to another.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna be open to that I'm gonna be present and open and influential in those spaces. That's a really different frame of mind.
Speaker 1:You know, just in that one, dare I say, makes one open to change there you go open to change.
Speaker 2:Well, I've loved this conversation. I hope it's given our listeners some handles on the concepts around change, uh, why we should be open to it, why that really positions us into a place of thriving, and and also, I think, the the discernment there of, uh, first order change and second order change is so key in the place we find ourselves in. So thanks, tom.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. Let's thrive, not just survive. You've been listening to the Autonomic Healing Podcast.
Speaker 2:Join us next time as we continue in our conversations with Tom. Podcast. Join us next time as we continue in our conversations with Tom. If you're interested in pursuing your own autonomic healing journey and want to find a practitioner, visit our website innerworkingsorg. See you at the next episode.