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The Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast
Hosted by Tom Pals and Ruth Lorensson, the Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast (AHA Podcast) explores how activating the brain engages the body’s interoceptive awareness and natural homeostatic processes, helping restore nervous system balance and support healing from stress.Grounded in neuroscience and the body’s innate intelligence, each episode offers practical strategies, scientific insights, and real conversations to help you build whole-person wellness—physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
Join Tom and Ruth as they unpack the science behind Autonomic Homeostasis Activation™, share tools for self-regulation, and invite you into a living systems approach to wellness that empowers resilience, freedom, and everyday well-being.
The Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast
Pain: Your Body's Secret Healing Language
In this eye‑opening installment of the Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast, Tom Pals and Ruth Lorensson peel back the layers of a sense most of us never knew we had—interoception, the brain’s moment‑to‑moment read‑out of everything happening inside the body. Moving beyond Aristotle’s famous “five senses,” Tom explains why modern neuroscience recognizes at least 21 human senses and argues that interoception is the one that lets us feel all the others.
Together they explore:
- Pain as a homeostatic emotion – drawing on A.D. (Bud) Craig’s groundbreaking work to show how pain isn’t just a warning siren but a built‑in motivation to heal, rest, and restore balance.
- The sympathetic vs. parasympathetic nervous systems, and how our mind‑jerk reactions can flip pain from a helpful signal into runaway anxiety, anger, or depression.
- Real‑life stories—from Ruth’s post‑spine‑surgery recovery to lived battles with hypochondria—illustrating how re‑interpreting internal sensations can turn distress into a path toward wellness.
- Practical tips for “letting the brain inform the mind”: noticing bodily cues without judgment, shifting from threat mode to curiosity, and partnering with the body’s natural drive toward equilibrium.
Whether you’re a clinician, a bio‑hacker, or simply tired of being ruled by aches, twitches, and racing thoughts, this conversation will change how you feel about…well, how you feel. Tune in and discover how activating interoception can unlock true mind‑body‑spirit homeostasis.
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Tom Pals
(0:02)
Welcome to the Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast. I'm Tom Pals.
Ruth Lorensson
(0:07)
and I'm Ruth Lorensson.
(0:09)
We'll be unpacking what it looks like to activate your brain to holistically manage stress and trauma to facilitate homeostasis.
Tom Pals
(0:17)
Being free to experience wellness in body, mind and spirit.
Ruth Lorensson
(0:22)
Thank you for joining us.
(0:24)
Let's get this conversation started.
(0:26)
Good morning Tom.
(0:27)
Good morning Ruth.
(0:28)
Well I'm excited about this conversation in the series of the Fundamentals of Wellness because we've been covering a few big things in the last few episodes like homeostasis.
(0:43)
Massive topic, really important to understand.
(0:47)
But in this one we're gonna be talking about interoception which when I first heard about interoception I couldn't even say it properly because I was like what is that?
(0:58)
So we're gonna explain what it is but then also more importantly talk about why it's so important in wellness.
(1:08)
So do you want to kick us off?
Tom Pals
(1:09)
Okay so interoception is a human sense.
(1:15)
So when I talk about human senses most people will think of five.
(1:20)
Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling.
(1:23)
And thank you as I like to joke Aristotle in 330 BC for insisting that there were only five human senses and we have been thinking about five human senses ever since.
(1:35)
And probably the reason that he thought of five is because the same reason that most people think of five because if you think about it seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling are predominantly the human senses involved in how we experience the world around us.
(1:58)
And how important is tasting?
(2:01)
Hearing?
(2:04)
Seeing?
(2:05)
Smelling?
(2:07)
And I missed one.
(2:09)
Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling.
(2:11)
Yes.
(2:12)
So but he was very dogmatic about there are only five.
(2:17)
Well from a neurobiological perspective the way we would think of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling as human senses and we've learned a few things since 330 BC that consistent with the way that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling are human senses we have 21 human senses.
(2:40)
And interoception is one of those human senses.
(2:46)
And I would argue that interoception is why we are even aware of all the rest of them.
(2:55)
Interoception is the sensory awareness of what am I feeling?
(3:05)
As A.D. Bud Craig wrote in his seminal work on interoception, how do you feel?
(3:13)
And to be able to answer the question how do you feel is a sensory experience.
(3:21)
I can't emphasize that enough.
Ruth Lorensson
(3:22)
And it's it's amazing how many people don't know the answer to that question.
Tom Pals
(3:27)
And frequently I'm not sure.
Ruth Lorensson
(3:29)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(3:31)
What are you feeling?
(3:33)
How do you feel?
(3:34)
The name of the title of his book, how do you feel?
(3:38)
An interoceptive moment with your neurobiological self.
(3:45)
An interoceptive moment with your neurobiological self.
(3:50)
So interoception is the one sense really that connects you with all of the other 20 senses.
(3:59)
And you'll find all sorts of different numbers of lists of different senses.
(4:04)
And how is a human sense defined?
(4:08)
I think 21 is a good a good number.
Ruth Lorensson
(4:12)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(4:12)
Okay.
(4:12)
Anyway.
Ruth Lorensson
(4:13)
And I was just gonna say interoception is a really big part of the AHA protocol.
(4:19)
So it's not the only part but a really key part of a session that you would do with a client.
Tom Pals
(4:27)
Oh it's essential.
Ruth Lorensson
(4:28)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(4:28)
Yes.
(4:29)
Homeostasis, as we've been talking about, is life.
(4:32)
It is that, as Scott Turner says, homeostasis is life.
(4:36)
I love that quote.
(4:39)
But homeostasis is that maintenance or return to a stable steady state because and change, that's life.
(4:54)
Things are constantly changing.
(4:56)
But to be able to maintain or restore that stable steady state when it's been dysregulated is what AHA is about.
(5:07)
It activates homeostasis.
(5:10)
But what I discovered is that you can activate the homeostasis in the enteric nervous system, the part of the brain that's in the gut, but it only continues in that homeostatic process in the presence of us having an interoceptive sensory experience.
(5:32)
So AHA itself is a sensory experience of homeostasis.
(5:38)
That's what AHA is.
(5:41)
And so we've been talking about homeostasis and related to wellness, interoception is your sensory awareness of how do I feel.
Ruth Lorensson
(5:51)
How do I feel.
(5:52)
And earlier when we were just talking, just before we started recording this conversation, I was saying that, you know, actually, you know, it's a simple question, but actually there's, people tend to kind of find themselves on one end of the spectrum or the other.
(6:11)
And one end of the spectrum would be, you know, someone who might be like a hypochondriac or something like that.
(6:18)
They're too aware of their body.
Tom Pals
(6:21)
Excruciatingly aware of how I feel.
Ruth Lorensson
(6:23)
They're like aware of every twinge and like everything.
(6:26)
And so some people's experience can be that.
(6:30)
And then other people's experience though, and many people I think are in this category are when they are disconnected and it's unusual.
(6:39)
They don't know how to reconnect and they don't, it's hard for them.
(6:45)
I would, maybe that's the best way to explain it.
(6:47)
It's hard for them to know, to assess how they feel in their bodies.
Tom Pals
(6:53)
And the reason for that is because of the nature of interoception as a sensory awareness of the body and how that's affected by a disruption or a dysregulation in it.
(7:08)
Illness is a dysregulation of homeostasis.
(7:13)
And so how do I experience the dysregulation?
(7:20)
How do I perceive it?
(7:22)
How do I think about it affects how I experience my sensory awareness of interoception?
(7:32)
Because think of interoception and it's your awareness of how you feel.
(7:40)
That could be emotionally.
(7:42)
How do you feel?
(7:43)
It could be physically.
(7:45)
How do you feel?
(7:47)
I'm tired.
(7:48)
I'm exhausted.
(7:49)
I'm in pain or I feel really vital and I feel energized or I'm anxious or angry or stressed or calm or I feel really loving.
(8:05)
How do you feel?
(8:06)
Interoception is that sensory awareness of all of those and a whole bunch more.
(8:14)
And so A.D. Bud Craig, when it comes to interoception, the term interoception goes back to a guy in Britain, back in the 1800s, his name was Sherrington.
(8:28)
And Sherrington coined the term interoception to distinguish it from the human senses of exteroception.
(8:39)
So exteroception, external, outside.
(8:44)
Exteroception is our sensory awareness of things outside.
(8:49)
And he coined the term interoception as the sensory awareness of inside.
(8:58)
Interoception and he specifically was very focused on and limited actually his definition of interoception to the viscera.
(9:08)
In other words, the viscera are the internal organs in the abdomen like the heart and the lungs and the stomach and et cetera.
(9:15)
And the viscera, which is interesting because the enteric nervous system is the part of the brain in the gut and it's there.
(9:26)
That's where that is.
(9:28)
So he naturally, intuitively thought of that part of the body.
(9:33)
And that's probably an intuitive kind of connection that he had.
(9:39)
Was sensing that part of why?
(9:42)
Because part of his brain was there.
(9:45)
And so when he thought of interoception, that sensory awareness of inside, he naturally gravitated toward the abdomen.
(9:55)
Because that's where part of his brain was.
(9:57)
Anyway, my point is that A.D. Bud Craig really researched and expanded our understanding of interoception.
(10:08)
And in AHA, interoception is our sensory awareness of homeostasis, of the restoring to normal optimal function.
(10:20)
But interoception is also the sensory awareness of something that's happening that is a dysregulation, is an illness.
(10:33)
And here's where the mind enters into the equation.
(10:39)
So the brain is sensing and arguably is, as I like to say, the brain has a mind of its own thinking about what is happening to the body.
(10:53)
But we with our conscious mind have perceptions of that as well.
(11:00)
So interoception isn't just awareness of what is going right, so to speak, but what is going wrong.
(11:13)
And with like hypochondria, oh no, or what about, does that make sense?
(11:21)
So maybe put it in your terms.
Ruth Lorensson
(11:24)
Yeah, I think what's really interesting is that interoception isn't just about feeling a physical sense, but it's also about feeling an emotion.
Tom Pals
(11:38)
That goes with it.
Ruth Lorensson
(11:38)
Yeah.
(11:39)
So for example, I used to struggle with hypochondria years and years ago, and pretty significantly actually.
Tom Pals
(11:46)
I have a headache and I've got a brain tumor.
(11:48)
Yeah, but you know- This is the way I heard one person put it.
Ruth Lorensson
(11:50)
Yeah.
(11:51)
And it would start out with a little kind of hyper awareness of, you know, is my finger twitching or is something happening?
(11:59)
And I would locking on that.
(12:01)
And there was something there physically.
(12:04)
So I was acutely attuned into that.
(12:07)
But then also part of hypochondria for anyone who's gone through it, and it's a really difficult thing to- Oh, it is.
Tom Pals
(12:16)
It's awful.
Ruth Lorensson
(12:17)
But the thing that actually really helped me was the recognition that it wasn't, that I wasn't just aware of physical pain, but it was, I was also the real, in some ways, the real pain was the anxiety around it.
Tom Pals
(12:35)
Yes.
Ruth Lorensson
(12:36)
And I remember having a conversation with my sister one time and I said to her, you know, actually, if there was just something wrong with me, like I would just be feeling the physical pain, not the emotion of it.
Tom Pals
(12:50)
Yes.
Ruth Lorensson
(12:50)
And so it really helped me distinguish what was what, you know, because in that space, it was the both, you know, it was the physical and the emotional.
(13:00)
And the emotional is actually a lot more loud, I think, than the physical.
(13:07)
So that was just my experience in that space with hypochondria.
(13:11)
But I think it is interesting because pain, what we're sensing isn't just physical, right?
Tom Pals
(13:19)
When it comes to one of those things we can sense, pain is one of those.
Ruth Lorensson
(13:24)
Pain is one, yeah.
(13:25)
Yes.
Tom Pals
(13:26)
And so the mind is what's associated with the emotions.
(13:32)
Depending upon how we are thinking about it, the terminology I would use is, am I having a seemingly rational perception or an actually rational perception?
(13:45)
And then emotions go with both of those.
Ruth Lorensson
(13:49)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(13:49)
If I'm seemingly rational, not actually rational, but the way I'm thinking about it is very believable to me, makes sense to me, I've got ways to rationalize and justify it, doesn't mean it's actually rational.
(14:05)
I can find all sorts of evidence to support a perception, but that doesn't mean it's actually rational.
(14:13)
It's like the perception that the world is flat, and if you sail far enough west, you're going to fall off the edge of the earth.
(14:20)
That's not actually rational.
(14:22)
But it seemed very rational and believable to the people of that day until somebody said, I think I'm just going to sail that way and see what happens.
(14:31)
Oh, it's round.
Ruth Lorensson
(14:33)
Yeah.
(14:33)
And I think another example for me at the moment, I've just, when it comes to feeling sensations in your body, which is the awareness of your body, and then the emotions that are attached to them, and I've just, in November 2024, I had spine surgery, which is a pretty big deal.
(14:56)
And it was, so far, fairly successful.
(15:00)
But I'm only four months in post-op.
(15:04)
And, you know, it's about an 18-month recovery because it's a core part of your body.
(15:08)
And, you know, whilst I'm out, you know, I'm out and about, I'm walking, I don't have my brace on anymore, I'm fine.
(15:14)
But internally, my body is still healing, very much so.
(15:19)
And I know that.
(15:21)
Now, part of the healing is that my body is regrowing nerves and doing all sorts of things.
(15:28)
And I will get pain and twitching and all sorts of random things happening.
(15:35)
And I can either feel stressed out by that and think, oh, no, is something gone wrong?
(15:42)
Or I can believe that actually my body is healing itself.
Tom Pals
(15:48)
Yes, because pain is a way the brain signals the body to create new cells.
Ruth Lorensson
(15:55)
Yeah, and so I think...
Tom Pals
(15:56)
It's part of nerve regeneration.
Ruth Lorensson
(15:58)
And I think what's really interesting, Tom, in this whole thing with interoception and like what we're sensing, if we can get to the point where we are sensing in a healthy way, what is happening with our body.
(16:14)
I think that most of us don't think of healing in a way that's...
(16:22)
I don't think...
(16:23)
Like when I think about the word healing, I don't think of something that's super uncomfortable or unknown.
(16:29)
I see it as like, you know, I'm like, okay, healing means warm.
Tom Pals
(16:33)
And feeling better.
Ruth Lorensson
(16:34)
Yeah, and hope and, you know, it's a positive trajectory.
(16:41)
Which is true.
(16:42)
But actually part of that is, in my case, anyhow, part of that is absolutely feeling uncomfortable at times, feeling pain at times.
(16:52)
Yes.
(16:53)
Having random symptoms, you know.
(16:55)
And so how do we, like when it comes to interoception, how our minds perceive what's going on is really key.
Tom Pals
(17:05)
Yes, yes.
(17:06)
And so I shared in our earlier part of our conversation, what are we going to talk about today?
(17:12)
Was that, and this is A.D. Bud Craig.
(17:16)
And in the Trends in Neuroscience in 2003, he wrote an article.
(17:23)
And the title of the article is, A New View of Pain as a Homeostatic Emotion.
Ruth Lorensson
(17:34)
That's amazing.
Tom Pals
(17:34)
And when I shared that title with you, go ahead, share your reaction.
(17:38)
A New View of Pain as a Homeostatic Emotion.
Ruth Lorensson
(17:42)
Well, I think, Tom, at first I was just like, I didn't even really know that there was, emotions were homeostatic mechanisms.
(17:52)
So let's just kind of recap that.
(17:53)
Because if someone's just coming in at this point listening, they might not know what we're talking about.
(17:58)
But, you know, we know homeostasis is this, it's a way our bodies engage with the dynamic disequilibrium to, like you said, maintain or restore this steady state.
Tom Pals
(18:14)
Right?
(18:15)
Yep.
Ruth Lorensson
(18:15)
So that's a great thing.
Tom Pals
(18:18)
Yeah.
Ruth Lorensson
(18:18)
That's what keeps us alive.
(18:20)
That is life.
(18:21)
Yeah, that is life.
(18:22)
So that's what we're aiming for, right?
Tom Pals
(18:24)
A homeostasis.
Ruth Lorensson
(18:25)
So, but there are homeostatic mechanisms.
(18:30)
So we talked in, I think, a previous episode of, you know, twitching or pain, or all these kind of physical sensations are mechanisms, which kind of signs to us that our body is in homeostasis.
Tom Pals
(18:48)
It's, and it's in that process.
(18:51)
And it is restoring normal function.
Ruth Lorensson
(18:53)
Yeah.
(18:53)
So, and so, you know, with a twitch, you might be like, oh no, that's really scary.
(18:57)
But actually you could see it as like, oh great, my body is engaging with homeostasis right now.
(19:02)
But, so all of that to say, I had no idea.
(19:06)
Like I knew the twitching and the, like, and the pain stuff were signs of homeostasis happening in the body.
(19:14)
But I didn't know emotions were.
(19:15)
So when you said that, I was really shocked.
(19:17)
And I was like, pain, like when we feel pain, and it's not just, it's both, well, you can clarify, both physical and the emotional pain.
(19:29)
But it is a homeo, well, this guy is saying it's a homeostatic mechanism.
(19:35)
So a sign that our body is healing itself.
Tom Pals
(19:40)
Yes.
Ruth Lorensson
(19:41)
So.
Tom Pals
(19:42)
Yes.
(19:43)
So as I like to say, pain is pain.
(19:48)
Pain is pain to the brain, no matter what kind of pain it is.
(19:54)
To the brain, pain is pain.
(19:57)
And pain, as Bud Craig put it, a new view of pain as a homeostatic emotion.
(20:10)
When we say pain, if I say pain to most people, or I was to say pain to you, what's your initial reaction?
(20:20)
Like yay?
(20:22)
And homeostasis and healing and restoring?
Ruth Lorensson
(20:26)
No.
Tom Pals
(20:26)
No, pain?
(20:29)
Yeah.
(20:30)
Bad, unwanted, uncomfortable, don't like.
(20:36)
In other words, threat.
Ruth Lorensson
(20:39)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(20:40)
Threat to well-being, not a manifestation of well-being and a restoration of well-being.
(20:51)
This is about wellness.
(20:53)
So a new view of pain as a homeostatic emotion.
(20:58)
In the abstract, pain is conventionally viewed as a pattern of convergent activity within the somatosensory system.
(21:11)
Don't touch that stove.
(21:12)
Oh, that's hot.
(21:13)
Oh, oh, or that'll cut you.
(21:16)
That represents an exteroceptive sense of touch.
Ruth Lorensson
(21:23)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(21:23)
Pain is conventionally viewed as a pattern of convergent activity within the somatosensory system that represents the exteroceptive sense of touch.
(21:35)
Parent with their child, don't touch the stove.
(21:37)
That's hot.
(21:38)
It'll burn you.
(21:40)
Accumulating functional, anatomical, and imaging findings indicate that pain is generated by specific sensory channels that ascend in a central homeostatic afferent pathway.
(22:00)
Afferent means in the direction of, toward the central nervous system.
(22:05)
So indicate that pain is generated by specific sensory channels that ascend in a central homeostatic afferent pathway.
(22:21)
That's why a new view of pain is a homeostatic emotion.
(22:25)
There isn't just the physical, there is the emotional with the physical.
Ruth Lorensson
(22:31)
Yeah, which is what I was describing.
(22:33)
Yes.
(22:34)
In that, you know, example of hypochondria is that it is actually, it is weird because like, I think this is interesting, Tom, because I think when we think about pain, we don't think it's an emotion.
(22:50)
But if you really think about what happened, like what happened the last time you felt physical pain, there is an emotion attached to it.
(23:01)
And just even asking yourself, well, what was that?
(23:04)
Is helpful.
(23:05)
That's interoception, right?
(23:07)
That is, that's entering into that space.
(23:10)
But I think the point of this article is saying, actually, by recognising both, there is a pain and there's an emotion towards it.
(23:21)
And if we can connect into that and understand that they're there to help our healing.
Tom Pals
(23:32)
Yes.
Ruth Lorensson
(23:33)
So even anxiety.
(23:34)
So what would you say about anxiety?
(23:36)
I mean, it's an unhealthy emotion.
(23:38)
So what is, what would you say in it?
(23:41)
For example, someone who is a hypochondriac, for example, they get a pain and then they also get another pain, which is the emotion pain.
(23:51)
Maybe it's anxiety, super heightened anxiety.
(23:57)
What is the homeostatic mechanism going on in there?
Tom Pals
(24:00)
Yep.
(24:01)
So phylogenetically, he goes on, new thalamocortical projections in primates provide a sensory image, a sensory image of the physiological condition of the body, interoception.
(24:23)
And in addition, direct activation of limbic motor cortex.
(24:31)
So the limbic system is the emotional brain.
(24:33)
It's the part of the emotion.
(24:35)
It's the chunk in the middle of the skull, which processes like the hippocampus, memory and learning.
(24:44)
I am experiencing something now.
(24:46)
It connects with something I experienced in the past.
(24:49)
The brain does that.
(24:50)
I also do that consciously with my mind.
(24:54)
And then there's the amygdala, which processes emotions.
(24:58)
It is usually and mostly associated with threat, but it's also pleasure.
(25:05)
The limbics, the amygdala in the limbic system.
(25:09)
And when we sense or perceive some stimulus, then the amygdala lights up and sends a message by way of the hypothalamus, which is also in the limbic system, into the autonomic nervous system.
(25:27)
So I'm getting at answering your question, because that message might go to either the sympathetic or the parasympathetic.
(25:41)
The sympathetic is flight or fight.
(25:44)
And the amygdala, by way of the hypothalamus, sends a message to the sympathetic, where we sense or perceive a threat to well-being and pain.
(25:54)
We may interpret with our mind as a sensed threat to well-being.
(26:00)
Ow!
(26:02)
Threat to well-being.
(26:03)
And the mind interpretation of that pain in the sympathetic is flight or fight.
(26:14)
Now flight, I think it's helpful to think of flight not as run away, run away, but as avoid.
(26:24)
So flight is avoid, and we experience that avoid, the sensed or perceived threat to well-being as anxiety or stress.
(26:35)
And I want to avoid it.
(26:38)
And I'm either stressed about it or I'm anxious about it.
(26:44)
That threat to well-being, which in this particular case is, ow, pain.
(26:51)
And that could be a physiological pain.
(26:54)
It could be a relational pain.
(26:56)
As I say, pain is pain to the brain.
(26:58)
And it responds to that.
(27:02)
Pain is what to the mind is another question entirely.
(27:07)
So anyway, so if we can't avoid, and the stress and anxiety is an effort to avoid the sensed or perceived threat to well-being, in this case, pain, in whatever manifestation or form that is.
(27:21)
When we can't avoid it, then it flips over into fight and think of fight as manage.
(27:29)
I can't avoid it, so now I want to manage it.
(27:32)
And manage can show up in unhealthy ways with anger or depression.
(27:41)
Anger is actively projecting management.
(27:47)
Does that make sense?
Ruth Lorensson
(27:50)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(27:51)
Depression is, ugh, it's not going to work.
(27:55)
I'm trying, I'm trying, it's not going to help.
(27:58)
And that's a hopeless effort to manage.
(28:05)
So when that, and often depression and anger make things worse, then it flips back into stress, anxiety, and avoid.
(28:15)
Or we can chronically be stuck in one or the other for long periods of time.
(28:21)
My point is, let's back up, particularly with the mind to understand that pain is a homeostatic emotion.
Ruth Lorensson
(28:35)
So what I'm hearing here, Tom, is that there's a translation issue going on.
Tom Pals
(28:40)
Very much.
Ruth Lorensson
(28:41)
So just because I'm feeling a pain and I'm super stressed out by it, and I'm anxious and I'm hypochondriac.
Tom Pals
(28:49)
Or I'm angry about I'm in pain and that's keeping me from doing this or that.
Ruth Lorensson
(28:54)
That doesn't mean that that is real.
(28:57)
That means that your mind has translated it into that, into the sympathetic nervous system.
(29:06)
And it could have been interpreted into the parasympathetic nervous system.
(29:12)
Sure.
(29:12)
Where you would see it as a homeostatic mechanism.
Tom Pals
(29:17)
Because the parasympathetic is about homeostasis, restoring.
(29:21)
So we sense or perceive a threat.
(29:24)
If it's an actual real threat, the sympathetic is homeostatic in the sense that deal with it.
(29:34)
Don't just let someone harm you or something harm you.
(29:39)
Deal with that and defend, protect, etc.
(29:46)
But that can go awry from defend and protect in a loving way, in a kind way, in a compassionate way, in a beneficial way, to I'm gonna get you kind of way.
(30:02)
They're both protective.
(30:05)
One's beneficially protective.
(30:08)
The other is detrimentally protective.
(30:10)
You follow me?
Ruth Lorensson
(30:12)
Yeah.
Tom Pals
(30:12)
That's huge because those are perceptions.
(30:15)
Anyway, my point is that when the sense to perceive threat to well-being isn't present, then the hypothalamus in the limbic system sends another message.
(30:29)
But now it's to the parasympathetic, which is very involved with homeostasis.
(30:34)
And the parasympathetic is about relax, recover, rest, digest.
(30:46)
And that's all about homeostasis.
(30:50)
Pain is a homeostatic emotion.
(30:55)
So these findings, as he goes on to say, these findings indicate that the human feeling of pain is both a distinct sensation, here it is, and a motivation.
(31:11)
That is a specific emotion that reflects homeostatic behavioral drive, similar to temperature, itch, hunger, and thirst.
(31:28)
I want to do something.
(31:30)
If, like with thirst, I'm really thirsty.
(31:35)
The homeostatic emotion of thirst, drink.
(31:40)
Hydrate your body.
(31:43)
Hunger.
(31:45)
Get something to eat.
(31:47)
Your body is saying it's motivating you.
Ruth Lorensson
(31:51)
Yeah.
(31:53)
So what would pain be then?
Tom Pals
(31:55)
Pain is seek healing.
(32:00)
Allow for healing.
Ruth Lorensson
(32:02)
Like maybe rest.
(32:03)
I know for me, like when I'm getting pain, I just traveled to England and lugged a little suitcase, which was difficult, you know, after surgery.
(32:12)
But when I came back, I was just like, my pain threshold had gone up.
(32:18)
And yeah, I was like, you know, I could have interpreted it as, oh no, I've done something.
(32:28)
Or as I did interpret it, was I've overdone it.
(32:32)
My body is sending me a message to rest.
Tom Pals
(32:34)
Yes.
Ruth Lorensson
(32:35)
You know, I need to take a few easy days here just to get back.
Tom Pals
(32:40)
And pain as a homeostatic emotion, when the mind is on the same page with the brain, says take it easy, rest, relax, recover.
(32:55)
But the mind may interpret the pain as a, no, I've got things to do.
(33:03)
I've got to manage.
(33:04)
Or, oh no, I'm not going to be able to.
(33:08)
Anxiety and stress.
(33:12)
The brain is processing it as a homeostatic emotion.
(33:18)
We with our mind may turn it into a threat when it actually isn't that at all.
(33:28)
What is it motivating?
(33:30)
For the brain, it's a motivation like thirst, hydrate, hunger, feed, pain, rest, relax, recover.
(33:51)
Or, oh no, or, oh no, we get to choose.
(33:58)
But the way the brain understands it, the brain has a mind of its own.
(34:02)
The way the brain is thinking about it is that it is a homeostatic emotion.
(34:09)
We get to let the brain inform the mind.
(34:13)
Oh, ow, ha, okay, heal.
Ruth Lorensson
(34:21)
Yeah, that's so good, Tom.
(34:23)
So I'm just, as we wrap up, just thinking about some advice for like, so, you know, for one, so I think that there's patterns, right, that we default into.
(34:37)
And if we have been in a fight and flight model, and we know that people, a lot of people in the environments that we live in are in these constant states of fight and flight.
(34:48)
It's almost a knee-jerk reaction to, it's probably a better phrase to say, a brain-jerk reaction or mind-jerk reaction to get into fight and flight.
(34:59)
Which we're not gonna go into right now.
Tom Pals
(35:01)
I love mind-jerk reaction.
(35:03)
I've never heard that.
(35:05)
That's awesome, because it is.
Ruth Lorensson
(35:07)
Yeah, so, and there's ways of, I think, healing those things too.
(35:12)
But we're not gonna talk about that right now.
(35:14)
But the point is, if you find yourself in a place where you're experiencing pain as a physical thing or an emotional thing, and you are stressed, you're anxious, you're trying to manage it, number one, that's a sure sign that your mind has interpreted that homeostatic mechanism into a negative thing, right?
(35:46)
So how do people change?
(35:50)
Like, how do they get, how can they switch?
(35:52)
How can they make the choice?
(35:54)
It's from the mind-jerk reaction to, hang on a minute.
(35:57)
No, I get to choose here.
(36:00)
I know the knowledge.
(36:01)
My brain knows that this is a homeostatic mechanism towards healing.
(36:06)
My mind is telling me that this is terrible and detrimental.
(36:15)
How do I get my mind in order?
(36:19)
Like, how do we do that?
(36:20)
Any suggestions?
Tom Pals
(36:21)
Yes, one, believe your brain.
(36:24)
And work with nature rather than against it.
(36:32)
Let your brain inform you.
(36:35)
Oh, pain.
(36:38)
This is homeostatic.
(36:42)
Pain is a way the brain can signal the body to create new cells.
(36:47)
Do I want new cells if I'm injured?
(36:51)
Yes, okay, this is just how it does it.
(36:56)
I may, and secondly, steer away from like and dislike, comfortable and uncomfortable, and think in terms more of wellness and healthy.
(37:18)
We have lots of emotions.
(37:22)
Pain can become interpreted by the mind as a healthy emotion.
(37:31)
I'm in pain emotionally.
(37:34)
Let's shift it into out of the body, but it doesn't mean it's not somatic, into I'm in pain because of what that person said.
(37:47)
Do I respond out of the sympathetic with anger or depression or anxiety?
(37:57)
That person caused me pain.
(37:59)
Or stress, that person's upset.
(38:03)
Or a homeostatic pain of compassion and kindness toward ourselves.
(38:14)
It's a homeostatic emotion.
(38:16)
The pain just is, reference back to our prior series of the ABCs of thriving and the A is accept adversity.
(38:28)
This hurts.
(38:32)
What directionality is that going?
(38:35)
Is it going toward wellness or illness?
(38:39)
The brain says wellness.
(38:43)
The mind may say illness, but then with the mind, I can say, okay, brain, inform me.
(38:51)
This is about wellness and can be.
(38:55)
Because pain is pain to the brain and pain is a homeostatic emotion.
Ruth Lorensson
(39:01)
So good, Tom.
(39:03)
Thank you for sharing that.
(39:05)
And I hope this is really helpful for our listeners.
(39:08)
I think the key is, ask yourself what you're feeling.
(39:14)
And understand, I loved what you said there about, you know, we can't box our emotions into be good ones and bad ones.
(39:21)
It's like, is this a healthy emotion?
Tom Pals
(39:23)
Or is it an unhealthy one?
Ruth Lorensson
(39:25)
And if it's an unhealthy emotion, it's a sign that your mind has interpreted it and you're now in the sympathetic nervous system.
(39:35)
So you can, but you can choose to engage with a different interpretation and get back into that parasympathetic nervous system.
Tom Pals
(39:47)
So yeah.
(39:48)
Rest, relax, recover, digest.
(39:53)
Homeostasis, pain is a homeostatic emotion.
Ruth Lorensson
(39:57)
Yeah.
(39:58)
Wonderful.
(39:58)
Well, we can't wait for next time.
(40:01)
See you then.
(40:03)
You've been listening to the Autonomic Homeostasis Activation Podcast.
(40:08)
Join us next time as we continue in our conversations with Tom.
Tom Pals
(40:11)
If you're interested in pursuing your own wellness journey, please check out our website, autonomichealing.org.
Ruth Lorensson
(40:20)
You can also reach out to Tom at innerworkings.org.
Keywords:
interoception, homeostasis, pain as a homeostatic emotion, autonomic nervous system, parasympathetic nervous system, sympathetic nervous system, trauma-informed wellness, neurobiology of healing, nervous system regulation, emotional regulation, hypochondria and anxiety, mind-body connection, somatic awareness, chronic stress, brain-body healing, healing through awareness, living systems approach, self-regulation, mental health podcast, AHA protocol, pain and healing, emotional pain, physical pain, nervous system healing, neuroscience of wellness, holistic healing